Central Phoenix, of course, but your boy doesn’t actually work at the library, he just hangs out there from 9 am to 9 pm. This is from Zillow.com:
Central City residents are distinct from people in surrounding areas because:
- A larger number did not complete high school.
- A higher proportion of them are divorced males.
- There’s a higher percentage of people who work in education, training, or library occupations.
Sorry, Zillovians, I just can’t get enough of this astute counter-marketing. Surprisingly enough, there have been no contributions to the neighborhood discussion fora. Maybe if Zillow offered free cigarettes — or booze — in exchange for real estate questions.
Here are some listings from this creepy neighborhood acrawl with divorced winos. The resident high school drop-outs can barely even get to six multiples of the median home value.
Technorati Tags: real estate, real estate marketing, Zillow.com
David G from Zillow.com says:
FYI –
If you’d like to check out the Zillow demographics in your neighborhood (and since this feature is still hard to find) here’s what you do:
1) Search Zillow for a house in the area you’re interested in.
2) Click through to its detail page on Zillow.
3) Follow the breadcrumbs (links) at the top of the page and click on the neighborhood.
In an upcoming upgrade neighborhoods will be more easily discoverable from the search results (map page.)
August 15, 2007 — 1:01 pm
Greg Swann says:
> In an upcoming upgrade neighborhoods will be more easily discoverable from the search results (map page.)
Cool. Any plans to stop insulting millionaires? 😉
August 15, 2007 — 1:03 pm
Minimum Wage says:
I think I’m going to enjoy this blog. I don’t need free booze or cigarettes to participate in a neighborhood discussion and ask real estate questions. I know nothing about this neighborhood other than what I’ve just read in this item and on Zillow.
I’m going to guess that the Phoenix main library is in this neighborhood, there may be a (current or former) K-12 school of some sort, or, more likely a college of some sort (e.g. CC or vocational post-secondary school). I further guess that public transit in Phoenix is below-average, poor, or nonexistent, and that there is some SRO housing in this neighborhood – perhaps the majority of the city’s SRO units – as well as a substantial number of low-wage jobs.
Now, where would YOU suggest the residents live?
August 15, 2007 — 1:59 pm
David G from Zillow.com says:
“Any plans to stop insulting millionaires?”
The demographic information is in fact written based on census data – though we plan to allow more granular definition of neighborhoods which will address your concern.
What do you have against librarians? 😉
August 15, 2007 — 2:05 pm
Greg Swann says:
> The demographic information is in fact written based on census data
I got that. It’s unflattering even to people to whom it applies.
Even in Encanto, the Census insists that Jaguar-driving attorneys also take the city bus. In fact, the bus passengers are their really-going-places kids. I’m pretty sure saying nothing is better than what you’re saying now.
I’m sorry to noodge you. I just think it’s funny.
August 15, 2007 — 2:11 pm
David G from Zillow.com says:
And no-one noodge’s quite like you do.
I hear you and frankly transparency bites sometimes but I urge you to ask yourself why it is that you would be offended by facts about your neighbors. Is that rational? Should potential buyers be “protected” from these truths?
An interesting piece of the Zillow adventure (for me) has been learning how much people’s sensitivity to transparency differs. You might not give a rat’s ass about the accuracy of your Zestimate but feel offended at the mention that your average neighbor doesn’t have a high school diploma. Yet the next guy will have the opposite reaction.
Good discussion. Sorry I can’t continue it but I’m going to miss my bus if I keep typing. 😉
August 15, 2007 — 2:24 pm
Greg Swann says:
> An interesting piece of the Zillow adventure (for me) has been learning how much people’s sensitivity to transparency differs.
It’s not transparency. It’s misrepresentation resulting from over-large samples. In fact, the only sample pleasing to the individual is the individual, so all of those statements will be guilty of conflation of unlike types. There are no high school drop-outs or adult bus passengers living in Encanto. If I went on a listing appointment and said the things Zillow is saying, I would skid to a stop on the third bounce. This is not transparency, it is stoopid salesmanship. If you insist on making computer-generated small-talk, go for geography or history. In bad neighborhoods your demographics sound awful. In good neighborhoods, they’re fighting words.
August 15, 2007 — 2:46 pm
David G from Zillow.com says:
Which is why … we plan to allow more granular definition of neighborhoods. Technically, it’s a tough problem to solve but these reminders are good motivation – keep ’em coming.
August 15, 2007 — 2:51 pm
Greg Swann says:
> keep ’em coming.
Seriously, no matter how granular: Geography and history. You learn about people by asking, not telling.
August 15, 2007 — 2:53 pm
David G from Zillow.com says:
I thought you understood that this was written from census data. No-one is telling. Uncle Sam asked and this is what the residents said about themselves.
August 15, 2007 — 2:58 pm
Greg Swann says:
David, I like you better than anyone I know at any of the Realty.bots, but — in the nicest possible way — y’all are clueless! I don’t care what the census says. What we’re talking about is how to approach strangers and make friends of them. Saying, “Like many people in this zip code, you are moderately obese,” might well be factually true, but it ain’t going to sell a house.
“This sure is a lovely multi-million-dollar home. Did you know that this sylvan urban enclave is surrounded by seething divorced high-school drop-outs with low-paying jobs?” I want to be there when y’all make that presentation!
Geography or history. Small-talk is meaningless blather to which no one can take exception. If you want to make demographics available, bury it under a tab and offer no evaluation of the data.
Has anyone at Zillow ever made a living selling face-to-face?
August 15, 2007 — 3:19 pm
Agent Scoreboard says:
jesus… you guys are funny as hell… you should do a road show…
Interesting I can’t find your “neighborhood” section for my house in CA.
August 15, 2007 — 4:22 pm
David G from Zillow.com says:
… can you imagine … Greg and I in an RV … blogging across America … but wait, hasn’t that been done before?
Scoreboard –
If you e-mail me your address I’ll try to figure out where your neighborhood is [davidg at z]
Greg –
I disagree that demographics should be hidden from buyers but it should be obvious why we differ on this; you get paid to make your seller’s house look good – and we don’t. With time, the small talk will bubble up and be given more importance on the local pages. You can help to kick start that process by getting involved in your local discussions. And again; not all people are offended when confronted with the facts about their neighbors. 😉
To your question; thankfully our ad sales team has been successful at selling face-to-face. I totally respect what they do; it ain’t easy.
August 15, 2007 — 4:29 pm
BR says:
I hear you and frankly transparency bites sometimes but I urge you to ask yourself why it is that you would be offended by facts about your neighbors. Is that rational? Should potential buyers be “protected” from these truths?
David, your site is sticking to fair housing laws, right? By that statement you just made, it would seem you may have issue with fair housing and the limitations it may place on zillow and the conversation.
August 15, 2007 — 4:29 pm
David G from Zillow.com says:
BR –
The FHA does not preclude discussion of neighborhoods or their demographics. The HUD website actually includes links to the census data we’re discussing here. Fair housing applies to the advertisement of real property that is for sale – that’s not what we’re talking about here. On this issue; I regularly find that real estate professionals misinterpret FHA to mean the removal of certain topics and words from your vocabulary altogether but that’s actually not accurate – though I totally understand the motives for their caution.
August 15, 2007 — 4:40 pm
David G from Zillow.com says:
BR –
http://www.hud.gov/news/focus.cfm?content=2006-05-01.cfm
To further illustrate my point check out this article on the HUD website that talks about “healthy communities for kids” and “affordable apartments for seniors” and “Kid-friendly, family-friendly.” I’ve met many Realtors who would never use those terms for fear of the FHA yet here they are, on HUD’s website, describing a nice (family friendly) community in Virginia.
August 15, 2007 — 4:52 pm
Brian Brady says:
Actually, David, Greg’s correct. The use of census data doesn’t accurately depict CHANGING neigborhoods. As early as 2000 (last census) Central Phoenix went through a transformation. While the historical neigborhoods were always charming, they attracted afficionados who were addicted to their historical value and proximity to the burgeoning commerce in downtown Phx.
This is one of the major faults with Zillow. You rely on historical data, in this case, near decade old data. Phoenicians and former Phoenicians alike can attest to the fact that “this Willow is not your father’s Willow” .
Point of disclosure: My first EZ-Ad was in the F.Q. Story district- some 2-3 miles from the Burton Barr Library. Do you think I’d spend ten bucks on the above demographics?
August 15, 2007 — 7:05 pm
Greg Swann says:
> Do you think I’d spend ten bucks on the above demographics?
No divorced library workers that I know of, but I can give you a big fraction of the window offices at City Hall, an ASU marketing professor and the Music Director of the Phoenix Symphony. Sculptors, photographers, about half the advertising creatives in Phoenix. But even if you did the demographics just on Story, you’d still come up wrong. There are still plenty of tenant-occupied homes selling for under $300,000 west of 15th Avenue. How Story really is is a lot less interesting than how Story sees itself.
FWIW, I think Zillow is tone deaf on the points I’m trying to make.
August 15, 2007 — 7:29 pm
BR says:
I am not sure if the fear is just the fha, I think the fear has more to do with being sued by a particular demo, or a community you harmed by a label, or the accusation of steering. Imus is being sued for a seemingly harmless comment that was maybe not so harmless at second glance, but as of today, he is still being sued.
I’m for sure no attorney, but the difference between the hud article you cite (the community itself had deemed itself in need of revitilization) and zillow is that hud is not selling anything, but the buyers and sellers that make up your community are- wouldn’t that make you potentially liable if a specic neighborhood is labled as something negative that hurts the value of the neigborhood, or steers one demo to or away from it? You’re right, this is a hot potato, that’s why I’m asking… “why it is that you would be offended by facts about your neighbors.” why it is that you would be offended by facts about your neighbors. Is that rational? Should potential buyers be “protected” from these truths?
August 15, 2007 — 7:50 pm