How about a roller-coaster? Much more likely to have riders and be successful than a trolley in Phoenix — the most vast, most sprawling and most car-addicted city on earth.
The leader in today’s Republic details some ideas about putting trolley lines in even dumber places. It turns out that really, really rich people can’t abide not having their throughfares blocked by empty trolley cars, while the urban poor prefer to ride crowded buses — at least until their bus routes are cancelled to subsidize the trolley.
The last time a trolley system made money in America, there was less than one automobile per household. There are neighborhoods in Metropolitan Phoenix where that statistic is still true — and the trolley goes nowhere near them. Instead, it will tootle from one shiny-people destination to the next, an instant relic that very prosperous people can point to with pride — as they speed by it in their Jaguars…
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Jeff Brown says:
Greg,
I certainly agree with your criticism of the trolley destinations. However, those same objections, among myriad others, were lodged in San Diego while the trolley was being debated.
We now have two basic routes here. You can go from our East County area to downtown which goes through our most depressed neighborhoods. It’s used to go to Padre games, the Gaslamp, shopping, and to connect to the southern route which takes you to the border.
The other route however, takes you to two regional malls, one of which caters to folks with money – Nordstrom’s, Saks, etc. This route just opened a new stop at San Diego State which has been a huge hit, as SDSU is infamous for its parking problems as it serves 30K plust students. This route makes several key stops in Mission Valley including San Diego Stadium, (Qualcom) and the earlier mentioned malls, on its way also to downtown.
There are plans for a new north/south route which will begin in our very prosperous North County area and head to the various areas mentioned, but most imporantly to the major Mission Valley and Downtown centers of employment. Your point about the Jaguars is well taken. But what we’ve seen here is that as the commute becomes more and more onerous, as it is now in Phoenix, more and more folks use the trolley, even when they have Jaguars. The traffic on 15 and 5 are horrific now on the the best of days.
It’s my contention that it’s because Phoenix is so huge that a trolley system will be successful. That aside, I leave the actual wisdom of routing to you folks who live there. I was as skeptical of our trolley and its destinations as you are there, and was pleasantly surprised at the actual results.
The trolley is now an intregal part of San Diego life. It’s a solid success with more routes planned. And yes, I use it when going downtown from my home in the east when attending Padre games. For $4.50 a ticket, my wife and I walk three minutes to the station in our neighborhood, take the 20 minute ride, walk the five minutes to the stadium, and don’t mess with the parking mess.
By the way, what are the arguments the planners are forwarding for their destination and route choices?
I enjoy your blog, and think it’s one of the best in AZ. Keep it up.
Jeff
September 5, 2006 — 8:56 am
Greg Swann says:
Wow! Thanks for that rundown!
Here are three things that occur to me:
1. San Diego achieved significant downtown development prior to the advent of the two-car family.
2. San Diego’s system is largely fixed-guideway, where Phoenix is building a true grade-level trolley — 15mph in lanes down the center of the street.
3. Even so, I expect the subsidy per passenger in San Diego is huge. I could be wrong, but I don’t know of any mass transit system in the U.S. that would pass the test of profitability as a free-market business.
In Phoenix, the subsidy will be around $20 per trip. I would be cheaper to transport every passenger by taxi. It would be cheaper, less polluting and traffic would move faster if we bought each passenger a new car every three years.
The passenger counts don’t work, either, at least for a grade-level trolley. Even packed — which will only happen when there are ball games downtown, the trolley will move fewer bodies per lane of traffic than those lanes could handle without the trolley tracks.
We are All Too Modern in Phoenix. That means we don’t do math on things we like…
September 5, 2006 — 9:21 am
Jeff Brown says:
Before my comment I gotta say how much I enjoy a truly intelligent give & take. Most blogs I’ve read makes me wonder if there’s a law requiring 80% of bloggers to have been educated in Little Rock. (Sorry in advance to all those from Arkansas. It’s a joke. Being from California I deal with my share.)
>San Diego achieved significant downtown development prior to the advent of the two-car family.
Actually it was sorta simultaneous. We’d been promised the ‘incredible Gas Lamp District’ for over a decade. The Gas Lamp did not come into being significantly before the trolley. In fact I’m not sure of the exact timing of the two, but since both are relatively new additions to SD, I’m pretty sure one did not preceed the other by much.
>Even so, I expect the subsidy per passenger in San Diego is huge.
>San Diego’s system is largely fixed-guideway, where Phoenix is building a true grade-level trolley — 15mph in lanes down the center of the street.
I’m not familiar with the terms, but for much of the trolley, existing tracks were used. I can still hear traditional trains a couple times monthly go by my house using the ‘trolley’ tracks.
They do use the electric ‘guide’ wires on top though. The only place they go down the middle of the street is very rarely, and I think only in downtown SD.
I’m ashamed to say I have no idea what level of subsidy is in play here.
A closing note. Your blog is the first in which I find myself disagreeing with a large part of your philosphy but understanding that we’re simply from different schools. We both operate our businesses with honor, integrity, and what we deem to be ‘the right thing to do.’ I can only admire and respect that.
September 10, 2006 — 3:31 pm
Jeff Brown says:
Greg, I actually researched the SD Trolley a little. It started WAY before the Gaslamp was even worth talking about, in 1981. I haven’t found out yet about subsidies, but the ridership has now hit 33 Million riders for the 12 months ending 6/30/06.
I am still learning how to link, but if you’ll let me go tis one time, I’ll just leave the url here for the article in the SD Union on the 25th anniversary of the trolley. It does talk about the need for state and federal bonds, so it certainly isn’t a profit center yet. But it sure appears to have been used a lot more than I predicted.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20060723-9999-1m23trolley.html
September 10, 2006 — 3:42 pm