A deeply philosophical discussion of the flame war that will not be happening at BloodhoundBlog
By: Greg Swann,
Phoenix Real Estate,
Post Archive,
RSS FeedPosted: Friday, April 11th, 2008, 7:30 am MST
Category: Blogging, Egoism in Action, Group Therapy, Real Estate, Realty Reality
Oh, good grief…
I can credit both sides of the rancorous dispute that is not going to happen.
I agree with Russell Shaw that Barry Cunningham can run roughshod over opponents in debate, and I knew without having to be told that Russ was steaming over this.
I agree with Barry on the factual prognosis for real estate. I watched it happen in the graphic arts, and I’m watching it happen in dozens of other industries.
I was laughing with Brian Brady on the phone last night that I have inadvertently introduced a second standard on ad hominem comments: Zero tolerance for everything else, but a wider latitude on Barry’s threads. I’ve stepped in when things seemed to be trending a little too flamey, but, for the most part I haven’t had huge objections.
Gentlemen, I want for you both — and for everyone reading this — to understand something that, like the oceans of air I am immersed in, is too obvious to me even to notice most of the time:
Weblogging is theater of the mind.
What we do is entertainment. It should be interesting, fact-based, persuasive — all that serious stuff. But we are competing for attention with radio and television, not Oxford University. I certainly want to talk about things that matter to me, and I have huge goals for real estate and for the world at large that I would like to see effected. But none of those things is going to happen overnight — and none of them in response to a blog post.
If Barry Cunningham paints the world with a broad brush and that makes you hot under the collar, the most interesting question is this one: Are you angry because he’s outrageously wrong — or because he might be right? When an argument is absurdly off the mark, we ignore it. Ha, ha. Who cares? It’s when things are too irritatingly right that we get irritated. Your emotional reactions tell you almost nothing about the world outside your mind — and almost everything about the world inside your mind.
But more importantly, all you need to do to defeat an erroneous argument is to shine a spotlight on it. Flaming is always rationalized by the logical fallacies Tu Quoque and Two Wrongs Make A Right, but none of that makes any difference. Fallacious arguments are rhetorical white noise. They are not just stupid and unpleasant, they are persuasively useless. You cannot malign or browbeat or campaign other people into taking your position, but what you can do, by persuasively valid debate, is completely undermine erroneous positions.
Want proof that this works? Even though Russ and no doubt many other people insist that my arguments on occupational licensing laws are “stupid,” no one can take them on as arguments and prove them wrong. I have won that debate — not by impugning motives, not by maligning character, not by coercive insinuations, not by ridicule or appeals to the mob or histrionic contempt — but simply by making an unassailable argument.
Even so: So what? Weblogging is theater of the mind. I won one argument, out of dozens, in what is for now a small but growing pond. What we are doing is entertainment, not world conquest.
And here’s the bottom line: Flame wars are bad for business. We are doing this so we all can learn, so we all can grow. We each of us have a right to be different from all the others — and you cannot imagine how important that right is to me. But we each of us have the right to be wrong, in other people’s eyes. I am very interested in spirited debate, but if spirits runs so high that we stop debating and just start squabbling, we are betraying our own objectives.
And: This will not happen. In comments threads, I can beat down flames by deleting the flaming comments. I make a point of putting no limits on contributors, but, as I have said before, I will intervene to break up fights among contributors. We are all of us guests in my home, and my guests are not going to abuse each other on my property. This is not censorship, this is civilization.
Russell Shaw and Barry Cunningham are so much alike it’s uncanny. Both big, brash funny men who are both much better at identifying injustice when it is coming toward them than when it is emerging from them. We all of us share this latter trait to some degree. Doesn’t matter. Barry has a right to his views, and so do the people who disagree with him. Russell has a right to disagree with Barry, but Tu Quoque is a fallacious argument no matter how cleverly expressed. Human beings will find ways to fight each other as long as there is anything to fight over. But they won’t do it here.
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18 Comments so far
Well said! You are turly a wordsmith and I tip the hat!
> turly
You spell like a Realtor, Barry Cunningham.
Here are some rules to live by, garnered from doing this for 30 years:
Not attacks, not accusations, not aspersions. Just simple questions. What would Socrates do?
You owe me two cents, net thirty.
I couldn’t agree more that the two men are so much alike its scary.
Barry is doing the real estate brokerage industry a huge favor by pointing out its inconsistencies. He brings up the things consumers won’t say to you; they just go away.
What Barry is doing is similar to what Jeff Corbett did to lenders in Fall, 2006. He hung 5 or 6 of us from a yardarm (actually, we hung ourselves) over on Active Rain. My solution was to pick up the telephone and get to know him. As I suspected, we agree more than disagree on the overall issues.
On the other hand (and there are always two hands), Russell offers constructive advice for the under-employed REALTOR. He was talking about price discovery over a year ago (his podcast at Star Power- “what the hell were you thinking?”). He and Barry are essentially saying the exact same thing about understanding the declining market.
Russell gave us a clinic (the podcast series from Spring, 2007) about what to do and not to do. His contributions have been invaluable with respect to marketing ideas from a mega-agent.
I think they’re both trying to achieve the same objectives; to tell folks that they need to get real about what we do and how we do it. They’re approaching this problem in two distinctly different but effective styles.
Satire is practiced and appreciated by brilliant minds. Both qualities can be attributed to both men.
Well done Greg. I have been trying to get this point across to Barry (via Brett) for weeks. There is absolutely nothing wrong with his message it’s the delivery that is getting in the way. Rightfully or wrongly he is being tuned out.
You can actually agree with 95% of what he writes and get slammed for the 5% you disagree with.
But hey Barry is certainly entitled to his opinions. Just as I am entitled to tune them out.
BB..you only wish I was being tuned out!
Greg…
That statement is flippin’ priceless!
Broker Bryant: I am watching this closely. Very closely.
ROAR!
Hmmm…
Part of my comment is missing:
Priceless=Quoting Greg here):
“Your emotional reactions tell you almost nothing about the world outside your mind and almost everything about the world inside your mind”…
TLW…ROAR!
Barry, You misunderstand me. I have no desire in the world for you to be tuned out. As I’ve stated many times I agree with most of what you have to say. Did you miss that part of my comment? Again?
I have just one question…..why is everyone on AR so emotional about what is a serious issue in the Real Estate industry.
Presentation aside…why can’t there be spirited discourse.
BB, we may not agree but at least you and I can speak cordially and resist going into a personal attack. I respect you for that.
Like Brian said, I could see us sitting down with a few cold ones and discussing this without it becoming a backyard brawl.
I don”t think many of the others that comment with forked tongue can do that.
Greg’s post of a couple of days age was as pointed if not more than mine.
On today’s show we talk to Pat Kitano and Jeffrey fox of the Dollarization principle.
I know what will be talked about today on the show and it is likely to cause more emotion.
Why is that? The realtor species is obviously being threatened and it’s not by me. I just can take an objective view of things.
that seems to tick some people off..but hey, whaddya gonna do?
Hey BB..no I did not miss it..I took the comment “rightly or wrongfully being tuned out” to imply that it was your feeling that we were.
Sorry for jumping to a conclusion
“Jeffrey fox of the Dollarization principle.”
THE Jeffrey Fox? Are you serious?
Barry…
In lieu of a comment that you deleted on another post I have asked Broker Bryant not to play with you
Sorry. I don’t mean it in a bad way. I just know what’s best for us and our Company.
The Company I worked so hard to create is not something that I take lightly.
Let’s just leave at that. Shall we?
TLW…ROAR!
BC: I am on AR and I assure you I do not get emotional. Of course you are right that real estate is going to change, but the biggest obstacle to the change we are all anticipating is modern medicine.
The way this business is done: 1099 contractors, low barriers to entry, on and on, ensures that for the most part real estate is a second career or a second income. With this most recent turn in the market, the only survivors will be the survivors, who are not getting any younger. I think we will continue to see the median age of brokers/agents continue to climb because modern medicine will keep the old school alive, which in turn will keep the NAR mother’s milk flowing to the politicians ensuring no meaningful legislative changes. Big dollar disintermediating venture capital has dried up, so here we are, the majority of us, doing what works for our clients.
We could all prepare for the next meteor collision as well, but for now, I bet on the dinosaurs and modern medicine.
Hi Brian,
Yes, THE Jeffery Fox of the “Dollarization Discipline” will be joining us on the air at 5pm EST.
FYI, Travis Greenlee will be on April 30th as well. I heard you may be interested in that as well.
We also look forward to having you on the program again soon.
TLW..choice is yours
I’m waiting for the outcry.
And I’m wondering how Russell saying Barry is a turd is funny, and Greg saying someone else a nebbish is completely out of line. Or perhaps I’ve missed that post? I’ll go check. I’m sure someone, somewhere is outraged by Russell?
“And I’m wondering how Russell saying Barry is a turd is funny, and Greg saying someone else a nebbish is completely out of line”
Teri- you’re just too smart
Greg,
The wisdom of your comments is priceless and I am grateful you said something. Judging from the reactions to your comments I understand your point about saying nothing. However, I do wish that you re-think about saying nothing.
Thanks,
Chuck