An Extrapolation Of Epic Government Involvement
At this moment, the President and Democrats in both Houses of Congress are finalizing a health care reform bill that not only no one understands – it won’t even be read by any of them prior to its passage.
The stated reason for this takeover is the spiraling cost of health care in this country. But health care costs are not the single largest expense that Americans pay for their existence. The single largest expense is housing.
While a majority of Americans are satisfied with their health care, the Democrats are in high gear to eliminate the health care system we currently enjoy – ostensibly to implement a system like Canada, the United Kingdom – or even Massachusetts. Many of these Americans are standing up against the Democrats in town hall meetings across the country.
But how many of these Americans would stand up if the government chose to take over the real estate industry? After all, doctors and nurses are ranked in the top ten most prestigious careers in this country – while real estate agents and brokers are at the bottom of the list.
Think about it – an argument to nationalize housing could easily be more acceptable than the argument to nationalize health care. What would the cost of housing be if you could eliminate profit from the equation?
The largest single expense when selling a home is the brokerage fee, followed by the costs to obtain a mortgage. What if these functions were performed by government employees with no profit motive?
Far fetched? The two largest purchases that most Americans make are houses and cars. And we all know who is now making the cars.
Gary Frimann says:
Housing is a choice. We can either rent, buy, or go homeless.
Our health is also a coice to some extent–whether we smoke, eat poorly, ride motorcycles, drive like an idiot, whatever.
Sometimes, we don’t have a choice in our health, as when we get shot by somebody, or there is a virus going around. Insurance companies stay in business by collecting premiums and denying claims. Period.
We need a healthy society as a goal, just like we need an educated society.
In my opinion, the health care “system” is broken, and should be fixed and is worth saving. There are so many aspects to it, I really doubt just one person knows it all about all the ramifications of health care revision.
I have been tremendously fortunate to now be able to be insured, although I also never use it. BTW, my health care coverage is $694/mo.–more than a payment on a fine luxury automobile…
Does health care need fixin’? I think yes.
Is government involved in housing. YES! RESPA, FHA, Fannie, Freddie, to name few things related to fed gov’t and home ownership.
Wait until small businesses get bled to death paying their employees health care, and people out of work losing their health care insurance start realizing the need for reform. I feel the numbers IN FAVOR will drastically increase. Something needs to be done.
August 9, 2009 — 9:08 am
Dave G says:
I do not want to walk into Greg’s house and be rude but I have to say…WOW! This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read.
First, you say the Democrats haven’t read the bill. Then you go on to say they are going to pass a bill that mimics the United Kingdom or Canada. Where did you get your information? Have you read the bill?
Seriously – you need to turn off Glenn Beck for a few weeks. The rhetoric is getting out of hand.
I don’t understand how anyone can believe it is O.K. to turn a profit on the backs of sick people.
Signed,
Small business owning, gun owning military veteran for health care reform – including a public option.
August 9, 2009 — 9:58 am
Doug Quance says:
>Gary: “Housing is a choice. We can either rent, buy, or go homeless.”
True. Or, as a fourth choice, we can have our fellow citizens pay for us to rent or buy. Yes, a Section 8 housing voucher recipient can still buy a home – using their housing voucher as income to pay. Either way, housing – to some extent – has been deemed a right, and therefore the government can take money from one party at the point of a gun to give to others.
>Gary: “Is government involved in housing. YES! RESPA, FHA, Fannie, Freddie, to name few things related to fed gov’t and home ownership.”
One can argue that government involvement is precisely what has led us to the housing crisis.
If you are so concerned about the rising cost of health care – why not be concerned about the much faster rising cost of GOVERNMENT. After all, businesses don’t pay taxes – people do. Businesses simply collect them for the government.
August 9, 2009 — 10:00 am
Doug Quance says:
>Dave: You’re not rude to state your beliefs. I don’t even find it rude to consider my post ridiculous. Ridicule it to your heart’s content.
I pay far more attention to the President and Democrats own words, as THEY are in control – and it is THEIR words I am concerned about… not Glenn Beck’s.
The President and other Democrats have stated their desire for a single payer system. Do you deny that?
I, too, am a Veteran… who receives health care from the VA. Do you think I know nothing about how the system works? Would you like to hear about MY experiences with single payer health care?
August 9, 2009 — 10:07 am
Dave G says:
Doug,
I am sure your experiences are far better than those who have a deadly illness or those with children that have a deadly illness and CANNOT get care because they do not have insurance. Or worse yet, they do have insurance but the insurance company has denied their claim.
This is what happens every day in the United States – and it is unacceptable. To argue that it is acceptable is crazy (or evil).
August 9, 2009 — 10:15 am
Jessica Horton says:
“I don’t understand how anyone can believe it is O.K. to turn a profit on the backs of sick people.”
I guess REALTORS(R) shouldn’t list and help people buy foreclosures or short sales either…
Signed,
Small business owning, gun-toting, independent, who thinks the government needs to be reformed.
August 9, 2009 — 10:18 am
Doug Quance says:
>Dave: It’s not the premise of my post. My post was to postulate the government taking over real estate brokerages for similar reasons that are put forth for health care.
And for the record, my first run-in with the VA was in regards to cancer – which they were kind enough not only to NOT see me anytime during my 14 hours at the hospital – but to snail mail me an appointment to see a doctor that was scheduled more than four months later.
But I suppose cancer isn’t on your list of deadly illnesses…. since you are so sure that my experiences are far better.
I never claimed the system didn’t need reform, Dave.
August 9, 2009 — 10:21 am
Jeff Brown says:
Geez people, socialism under any other name still reeks. It’s failed every time it’s been tried, blah blah blah.
Can we please get on a learning curve here? Extract emotions from the issue until it’s time to apply them for appreciation or regret — after the fact. Emotions applied to any issue in life before thought is what causes most problems.
August 9, 2009 — 10:23 am
Dave G says:
Doug,
1st, I’m sorry about the “evil” part. I feel so strongly about this issue that I sometimes get heated and go too far, and that was too far. I apologize.
My main point is that you have not read the bill. But I am going to assume that you know for a FACT that the bill does NOT include a single-payer system, yet you purposefully misrepresented it in your post.
Jessica – Im not going to respond as to the differences of selling foreclosures and sick people being denied health care for a profit.
August 9, 2009 — 10:33 am
Greg Dallaire says:
Wow this post has struck some matches! I think all people from all political spectrums believe there is a problem with our health care system.
But the idea that the government who does such a wonderful job of running all of are other entitlement programs into the ground is not the answer. Medicare, Social Security, Freddie and Fannie Mae all wonderful display’s of how you can take an idea and waste our precious tax dollars. The idea is great but having a government who can’t even balance is budget is even more crazy.
But wait isn’t there some major common sense to all of this. You give the power to government for healthcare they control who lives and dies! Bottom line if you think that’s ok and a great idea shame on you. America is about Freedom and Liberty!
The people that fought for our freedoms must be turning over in there graves.
August 9, 2009 — 10:38 am
Dave G says:
Doug, thanks for getting my blood moving.
Jeff, thanks for snapping me out of it.
Have a great day/week everyone!
August 9, 2009 — 10:40 am
Doug Quance says:
>Dave: I did not say the bill contained a provision for single payer. Please go back and reread my post.
The stated end-goal of the Democrats IS to implement a single payer system… and the public option is the vehicle they plan to use to get there.
I have not purposefully misrepresented anyone.
August 9, 2009 — 10:42 am
Doug Quance says:
Judge for yourselves. I don’t make this stuff up.
August 9, 2009 — 10:58 am
J Messina says:
The government is trying to right every monitary wrong it can put a finger on at present time. Homeownership is sacred and all is not right with the world right now. Our government is now regulating the appraiser’s abilty to determine market value. I don’t think they are done with the apraisers yet as he HVCC has revealed the wide range of appraiser competency that we have been living with for years. If foreclosures continue to be a problem, I don’t think it is a stretch to believe they will come after realtors next.
Case in point: buyers are screaming that they want to purchase foreclosure inventory homes and they are making 10 offers before one of them gets accepted. Meanwhile investors are buying up the same discounted homes at auction and re-selling them to buyers at the marked-up price (afte the bank’s failed short sale or MLS listing and home was vacant 1 year or more). This lack of transparency should concern realtors but for some reason it does not.
August 9, 2009 — 10:59 am
Jessica Horton says:
Doug:
I apologize for jumping the gun. I’m confident the government will get around to alleviating that type of suffering too.
I must learn to be more patient. Utopia doesn’t happen over night…health care and the climate first.
August 9, 2009 — 11:07 am
Dave G says:
Doug,
Insurance Exec Admits To Killing Patients
August 9, 2009 — 11:08 am
Doug Quance says:
>Jessica: You are directing your comment to Dave, correct?
August 9, 2009 — 11:10 am
Doug Quance says:
>J Messina: You certainly help make my point. Thank you, sir.
August 9, 2009 — 11:11 am
Jessica Wynn Horton says:
Doug:
Sorry about that! You are correct. 🙂
August 9, 2009 — 11:13 am
Jessica Wynn Horton says:
One more thing before my buyers get here:
When are we going to start regulating funeral homes and morticians? It is awful for them to profit off dead people!
August 9, 2009 — 11:16 am
Jeff Brown says:
J Messina — Lack of transparency? Investors with a few million bucks to spend get better deals buying from lenders in bulk. That can’t be a surprise to anyone. Single property buyers can’t compete with that, which is the issue, not transparency.
August 9, 2009 — 11:17 am
Robert Worthington says:
Socialize real estate? Eww. Please no. Great thought though. I totally agree, since housing is the most expensive part of living, will landlords alike have caps on rent? Talk about property depreciation then…
August 9, 2009 — 11:29 am
Jeff Brown says:
I’d like to embed one too, Doug. Cars kill people. Why are they allowed to exist without far more regulation of both the auto itself, and the operators? It’s a travesty!
August 9, 2009 — 11:29 am
Doug Quance says:
>Jeff: I believe that more regulation is heading your way. Better keep on that low-carb diet – you’ll need to size down for that SmartCar!
August 9, 2009 — 11:36 am
Jeff Brown says:
Hey Doug — It’s my opinion the current administration has a very short effective shelf life. Even on their side of the isle we can see the cracks developing. Americans are conservative historically, and are aghast at what’s happening. They’re now making themselves heard, which is both providing backbone to CS Republicans, and scaring Democrats fearing for their reelections.
This too shall pass.
August 9, 2009 — 11:42 am
Doug Quance says:
>Jeff: While I agree – I am afraid that pragmatism will not prevail over ideology. Hopefully I will be proven wrong.
However, back to my original premise, what is to stop them from coming after the real estate business? I fear that our supporters would be few and far between. After all, there wasn’t much resistance to the government taking over the car biz and closing dealerships.
August 9, 2009 — 11:47 am
Greg Swann says:
> what is to stop them from coming after the real estate business?
I’m with Doug — no surprise. Those who doubt his premise should take a look at the arguments made in behalf of rent control.
August 9, 2009 — 1:08 pm
Jeff Brown says:
His opposition is not only getting louder and more focused, it’s coming from his own party — from behind. He’s now fighting a war on multiple fronts. He’s resorting to open intimidation.
Once health care bill doesn’t pass, along with defeat of anything close to his cap/trade bill, he’s done. Ideology indeed will have won the day. Just not socialism.
August 9, 2009 — 11:53 am
Doug Lindstrom says:
Dave G- Talk about rhetoric. The title of your video- Insurance Exec admits to killing patients. He did not admit to any such thing! He regrets the fact that the insurance company had to review a persons (unclear as their condition) records to honor the claim. While I do not agree with that either, your labeling is a liberal talking point. Accusing others of listening to Glenn Beck is completely hypocritical and when the rubber meets the road, we should all think for ourselves and realize the Gov’t in any enterprise is doomed. The proof is overwhelming that the Gov’t has not business being in business.
August 9, 2009 — 12:06 pm
David Losh says:
Please forgive me for interjecting a serious note, but private health insurance died a horrible death in the 1980s under the Reagan Administration. Like Bush did to banking Reagan ignored the AIDS epidemic. The private health insurance industry never recovered.
Massive amounts of money have hemorrhaged out of health care ever since. Cancer is an incredible burden that we all pay for. We need solutions. Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, and VA benefits are all in jeopardy with the rising cost of the private sectors crusade for profit.
Are government entitlement programs in jeopardy because of government incompetence or can they not compete with the unlimited funding of the private sector? What no one looks at are the fancy hospitals, the sprawling clinic systems, and the rise in the cost of medication. We all pay so a very few people can think they have health care.
We have nothing, and we pay the top prices in the world. You have cancer? You get to see a doctor? You are so lucky that you have VA. In the private sector millions of people go home to die alone.
As far as funeral homes, yes the cost to bury our dead needs to be heavily regulated. Doctors kill people by the thousands in this country so the insult of having to pay for a funeral is kind of a cheap shot.
August 9, 2009 — 4:01 pm
Doug Quance says:
>David: Perhaps you can enlighten us as to how private health insurance died a horrible death under Reagan. I’m all ears.
Your assessment that Bush destroyed banking pretty much overlooks the 1999 Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act – which was signed into law by Bill Clinton – for which banking deregulation has been blamed in part for the economic meltdown… right along with The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 which was passed under Jimmy Carter.
Some people will blame Bush for everything.
August 9, 2009 — 6:10 pm
Jessica Wynn Horton says:
David:
I’m glad we agree: “cheap shots” aren’t the answer — not mine and most certainly not the kind the government wants to hand out. BTW Cheap pills won’t work either.
The bottom line is that you probably want to regulate everything and have more government. I would like less. A whole lot less…
Doctors kill people. Doctors save people.
People kill people. People save people.
Life happens.
I would rather die in my bed a FREE person than to ever be the recipient of socialized medicine in the United States.
August 9, 2009 — 6:19 pm
Dave G says:
Jessica,
>>I would rather die in my bed a FREE person than to ever be the recipient of socialized medicine in the United States.
So you plan to refuse medicare as you enter your mature years? Well, no one can ever call you a hypocrite – that’s for sure.
Actually, why don’t all Republicans make a real stand here…follow Jessica’s lead. Stand up for what you believe in. If “socialized medicine” is bad – tell the senior citizens of this country that you are against them receiving medicare. Add the plank to your platform and let the seniors know that you are going to cut them off and they should make plans to purchase private insurance…for their own good and for the sake of freedom.
August 9, 2009 — 6:59 pm
Greg Swann says:
> If “socialized medicine” is bad – tell the senior citizens of this country that you are against them receiving medicare. Add the plank to your platform and let the seniors know that you are going to cut them off and they should make plans to purchase private insurance…for their own good and for the sake of freedom.
I’m not inciting anyone to ire — and I would ask everyone to dial it back. “You probably think _____” is characterization, the fallacy ad hominem. If you want to know what someone thinks, ask. If you want to be mad that other people get to motivate their own minds and express themselves accordingly — dang…
But, as for me: I agree with every bit of the characterization quoted above. The promises and lies of the “social security” Ponzi game turned the once-free America into a zoo — a seemingly benign prison of comfort and convenience. But now the money is running out, and we become more and more a culture of self-consumption: People who survive only by plundering each other’s wealth through the agency of the state. Of all of the benefits that would flow from a dismantling of the nanny-state, the best gifts of all would be moral: We would become once again devoted to rewarding virtue rather than subsidizing, excusing and palliating vice. Dare to imagine your neighbors as the smart, productive people they are — and then get the hell out of their way!
August 9, 2009 — 7:46 pm
Dave G says:
Greg,
While I feel that a social safety net is a “must have” in a civilized society, if it is to remain civilized – I respect your right to disagree..and I am always impressed with your willingness to express your beliefs.
But if we are going to condemn social medicine – then let’s condemn it (as you did above). Let’s not say it is good for senior citizens and retired military but bad for everyone else. If we are going to be against it, we should be against it for everyone, no exceptions. And we should be open and honest in the debate.
As far as imagining my neighbors…My neighbors name is Kathy. She grew up in her home and inherited it from her mother. Back then, my house and everything south was an oak tree forest. I mow her lawn in the summer (her adult daughter helps, too) and plow her driveway in the winter. After working at a hospital for 20 years, she was forced into early retirement because of a chronic illness. She is currently on COBRA insurance and the hospital is trying to force her off of it (her doctor is doing what he can to stop them – and he has had some success). She is still about 16 months away from qualifying for medicare. If she loses her COBRA coverage, she is not sure what she will do or what will happen to her – and she’s scared. That’s my neighbor.
I know that everyone is not going to agree with me on this (the comments make that obvious), but I think America can and should do much better. If you agree with me, please call your Senators and U.S. Representative (it only takes about 30 seconds) and let them know how you feel. If you disagree, please don’t -=)
August 9, 2009 — 8:48 pm
Missy Caulk says:
Well, I have read the bill. I downloaded it when someone sent it to me some quotes from it and I wanted to check the facts.
Here is a question ?
Why is tort reform not in the bill? When I had my first baby my OBGYN liability insurance was 10K that was 1979. When I had my last ( number 5 ) in 1990 it was 80K.
He sold his practise to the hospital last year and now works for them. Yes, at this point I still get to chose him. Since it is now 2009, there is no telling what his liability was. Enough to sell the the hospital for sure.
He had never been sued.
Why should each physician be charged a high premium for never being sued. Did you know if you have agents in your office you are sued, the whole E & O goes up?
Finally, last yr I sold a home in Ann Arbor to a physician from England. He and his wife are both British, I asked him about the health care there and what prompted his move here.
and I quote…”the health care is so much better here. If you have someone in a car crash the MRI machines are right there. In England you wait sometimes for days. As much as we love England and our families are there, we just didn’t feel we could care for people like here in the U.S.”
Does health care need reform yes. But, not this bill. Why not test it somewhere and see? Oh yea, Mass and Tn did that and it didn’t work.
August 9, 2009 — 8:53 pm
Dave G says:
Missy,
I agree 100% that tort reform must be a part of the solution.
But the fact of the matter is that Great Britain does have a better health care system than the U.S. They are ranked #18 vs. our #37 in the world. As far as life expectancy, Great Britain is #37 vs. our #45.
They also spend a heck of a lot less than we do..less than 10% of GDP.
August 9, 2009 — 9:09 pm
Gary Frimann says:
For starters with Tort reform, why don’t we have medical courts that just address medical issues? I’m not talking about blatant negligence like cutting off the wrong leg, or leaving surgical sponges in the patient (quite frankly, Drs now have procedures for that stuff–and I assume that those cases are readily settled; what’s to argue?) but how about having a Medical Court. We have Traffic Court, Family Court, Drug Court. We could have selective people trained in biology, chemistry, anatomy, etc. to sit specifically on those juries. Does anyone really think the average person is capable of understanding medical procedures. Since it is a civil matter, the losing party pays for it. Maybe we should have the losing party pay for any court costs and attorney fees incurred by the prevailing party.
August 9, 2009 — 10:08 pm
Doug Quance says:
I appreciate the spirited debate, all. While I believe we all can agree that our health care system could use improvement – so could many other facets of our society… starting with government reform. The government beast eats up nearly half of the gross domestic product – and has become less responsive to our needs each day that passes.
One Democrat constituent recently commented that Congress and the President are ramming this bill through in a few weeks… but it took Obama six months to pick a dog.
In my Congressional district, my Congressman recently made the news with this tirade against a Doctor who lives in the district:
They’re not listening to us. If they were truly interested in improving health care by lowering costs and expanding access, then tort reform and the skyrocketing cost of higher education would be addressed – but it’s not.
I never thought I would see our government so out of control… which leads me back to my premise of “when are they coming for us?”
August 9, 2009 — 10:32 pm
Dan Homan says:
I can’t believe it. I thought NAR was doing a fine job on fettig legislation passed. No, wait, they actually lobby for one thing, and when congress passes something new they change their legislative goals and send us an email declaring victory. Sounds like a plan to me. I am glad that we have a steady hand at the helm in these troubled waters.
August 10, 2009 — 5:14 am
Joe Strummer says:
They’re not listening to us. If they were truly interested in improving health care by lowering costs and expanding access, then tort reform and the skyrocketing cost of higher education would be addressed – but it’s not.
I never thought I would see our government so out of control… which leads me back to my premise of “when are they coming for us?”
If people want a free market, then give them a free market. But people are loss averse. They like generally what they have now (maybe with a little Tort reform!), even if they call it “free market”.
Incidentally, often “tort reform” is just a method by which corporations, insurance companies, and doctors to insulate themselves from liability. So while there might be some useful reforms there, I’m not exactly sure what they’d be.
The current health care system is no where close to free market. Insurance companies in the United States are quasi-government entities, heavily regulated and licensed by the states. States mandate what insurance companies must provide. In exchange, insurance companies get a quasi-monopoly such that in many states there is a single dominant insurance provider.
In addition, health insurance is privileged under the tax code from both the employer and employee’s perspective. The provision of health care, the licensing of health care professionals, the regulation of drug approval. All of these things are “socialist” – mandated, regulated, or provided by the government. Then of course medicare and medicaid have been around for 40 years, so most people over 65 or under certain income levels get their health care from the government.
So Doug if you want to champion the free market, and rail against “socialism” then do it. But have the courage of your convictions, and call for the elimination of Boards of Medicine and licensing of doctors, Medicare, Medicaid, favorable tax treatment for health insurance, all regulations of the provision of medical care, and on and on. I love the story of the woman at one of the town hall meetings who complained that Obama’s Health Care reform was going to take away “her” medicare.
Also, I see you’ve come out against all federally guaranteed student loans, including the preferential treatment students loans enjoy in the Bankruptcy code, any aid to universities, the abolition of all state universities. At that point, we’ll have “controlled” the cost of education.
If you want to stand up against socialism, that’s fine. But be sure you know what you’re standing up for. If you’re just standing up against Obama’s health care plan and in favor of the status quo or the status quo ex ante 2008, then drop the “socialist” rhetoric, because in case you haven’t noticed, you and your parents and grand parents have lived in a country for the past 100 years that has had a good deal of its economy socialized.
August 10, 2009 — 7:47 am
Greg Swann says:
> So Doug if you want to champion the free market, and rail against “socialism” then do it. But have the courage of your convictions, and call for the elimination of Boards of Medicine and licensing of doctors, Medicare, Medicaid, favorable tax treatment for health insurance, all regulations of the provision of medical care, and on and on. I love the story of the woman at one of the town hall meetings who complained that Obama’s Health Care reform was going to take away “her” medicare.
> Also, I see you’ve come out against all federally guaranteed student loans, including the preferential treatment students loans enjoy in the Bankruptcy code, any aid to universities, the abolition of all state universities. At that point, we’ll have “controlled” the cost of education.
I’m for all of this, too, but there is much more to be done: True tort reform entails a truly free court system. The coercive-monopoly court system has no market-based incentives to behave reasonably. Doing away with liability limitation and the doctrine of sovereign immunity — nothing more than fiats of statute law — would also help. Freedom means freedom from the state. Total freedom implies zero government — zero coercion by a monopoly of superior firepower.
August 10, 2009 — 9:42 am
Doug Quance says:
>Joe: You make many good points. I understand that the free market is not totally free – nor do I believe it should be. Regulation is an important function of government.
Having said that, we are not a great country because of government. We didn’t rise above every other nation on this planet because of government. We did so because of freedom – and the general lack of burdensome governmental control and intervention that other mature countries imposed on their people.
Where did you get that idea? Why must people stick words in my mouth? I simply pointed out that higher education costs are also skyrocketing – and since Doctors are the biggest individual consumers of higher education, it should be part of the equation.
You won’t get cheaper cars if the cost of auto parts are rapidly rising – and you won’t get cheaper health care when the cost of educating those in the health care industry is rapidly rising. That’s not rocket science.
BTW, if you think that raising taxes on those greedy, filthy rich doctors is going to lower costs – you’ve got another thing coming. And since medical facilities are big users of electricity – adding to their costs with some giant carbon tax will also not reduce health care costs.
Here’s another one to stuff in your pipe and smoke:
How much do you think health care will cost when it’s free?
People clamor to anything that is perceived as FREE… and “free” health care will be no different. The system is already abused to some extent by people who have low deductibles and low co-pays – just imagine what the system would be like when there is no co-pay.
No, I would like to see much more thought go into this government takeover than we’ve seen thus far. Hawaii tried universal health care by using a public option… and it lasted seven months. It seems that people went for the “cheap” public option… and the state realized the costs were going to be much higher than expected. Massachusetts is buried in the cost of their universal health care instituted by Mitt Romney… and they still don’t know how to get out of that mess.
Now back to my premise – what is to keep the government from taking over the real estate business?
August 10, 2009 — 8:25 am
Doug Quance says:
> “I’m for all of this, too, but there is much more to be done: True tort reform entails a truly free court system. The coercive-monopoly court system has no market-based incentives to behave reasonably. Doing away with liability limitation and the doctrine of sovereign immunity — nothing more than fiats of statute law — would also help. Freedom means freedom from the state. Total freedom implies zero government — zero coercion by a monopoly of superior firepower.”
Nobody can say that Greg Swann isn’t a Libertarian’s Libertarian. 🙂
August 10, 2009 — 9:51 am
Al Lorenz says:
While the debate on Health Care and Socialized Real Estate is interesting, I went to the link on Most & Least Prestigious jobs to see if there was any relationship to “prestigious” jobs and those being taken over.
In the least prestigious, banker, business executive, union leader, stock broker and accountant are some of the biggies in already being taken over by government. With firefighter, scientist (remember global warming is settled according to the government), doctor, military officer, nurse, police officer & farmer also being mostly government controlled it certainly can’t be prestige that is driving the takeover.
Looking at the lists of jobs, the government seems like they are in the process of taking over nearly everything. Is that what you are trying to point out?
August 10, 2009 — 9:56 am
Doug Quance says:
>Al: It was not my intent – but your observation is interesting. I was simply posing the point that while the health care supporters and opponents are vocal and in full force – what would stop the government from taking over real estate? It almost seems a natural evolution with the crowd in charge.
August 10, 2009 — 10:16 am
Dave G says:
>what would stop the government from taking over real estate?
I think we call it an election. Its pretty simple. The last one stopped the government from starting more wars under false pretense, among other things. If the government tries to take over real estate (or the bubble gum industry or the paper clip industry) – I will be voting against those responsible.
August 10, 2009 — 11:55 am
Doug Quance says:
>Dave: Methinks you speak too soon. The last election hasn’t stopped the government from anything. If war is your issue, Obama has already upped the ante with more troops in Afghanistan – and the rate at which lives are being lost in that war is rising rather rapidly.
You’d better wait for Obama’s term to end before predicting what he will or will not do.
At this point – I put nothing past him, Reid or Pelosi.
August 10, 2009 — 12:20 pm
Dave G says:
Doug – as I stated above, the government has not started more wars under false pretense since the election.
>At this point – I put nothing past him, Reid or Pelosi.
Yea, that is what the left said about Bush & Cheney. It goes round and round. Nothing gets done.
August 10, 2009 — 1:58 pm
Doug Quance says:
Well no discussion of state-sponsored health care without the obligatory death case:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5517492&page=1
Yep – ABC did a good job of acting as if the insurer was a private health plan… but no, it was Oregon’s Medicaid program offering to kill the patient versus paying for care.
The government does very little very well.
August 10, 2009 — 5:57 pm
Joe Strummer says:
Where did you get that idea? Why must people stick words in my mouth? I simply pointed out that higher education costs are also skyrocketing – and since Doctors are the biggest individual consumers of higher education, it should be part of the equation.
You won’t get cheaper cars if the cost of auto parts are rapidly rising – and you won’t get cheaper health care when the cost of educating those in the health care industry is rapidly rising. That’s not rocket science.
Right, but you like your socialism: you apparently are content with your state universities, and your subsidized tuition, and you apparently have no problem with medicare, medicaid, and government regulation of the health care industry, a tax system that privileges employer provided health care, licensing of doctors, and limits on malpractice liability.
These are all “socialistic”. So you like your socialism, you just like a different kind of socialism than the one that Obama likes.
If you’ve got specific arguments about the policy proposals – that they increase cost while decreasing care – then that would be a good place to start. Or you could compare the American system of health care to the French, which apparently has achieved fairly high quality health care on a nearly universal basis.
But simply calling something socialistic, when the United States has had its own myriad forms of socialism for the last century, isn’t really persuasive if you’ve had a chance to reflect on the many ways that government provides retirement, medical, educational, legal, regulatory, and welfare services in this country.
August 10, 2009 — 6:00 pm
Doug Quance says:
You’re still putting words in my mouth.
Apparently, you have a different definition of socialism than I do.
This is pretty close to my take: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
If you knew anything about me, you would know that I am not in favor of government education – much less state colleges. I don’t have a problem with a safety net – but that doesn’t imply my endorsement of the government taking over any section of private business for public use.
Don’t get me started on Kelo vs New London….
August 10, 2009 — 6:07 pm
David Losh says:
Here’s what Reagan did, nothing. Bush did nothing.
Now don’t get me wrong I voted for both guys twice, but had they acted we would be in better shape today.
The losses on AIDS were and are staggering. Imagine, in addition to drug abuse, cancer, and the birth rate you add in a long term care disease with medication that is experimental. Insurance companies, doctors and hospitals lost money. The medication was wildly expensive and as people died the demand something be done grew. We are all paying for AIDS. It’s the capitalistic system we have in place. Bottom line is the health care industry pushed as many patients into medicaid, and medicare as they possibly could. I could go on, but it’s pretty boring.
Bush did nothing with the financial sector. It went completely out of control. At some point some one should have at least warned us that we were heading for a global economic melt down. Bottom line, Clinton surplus, Bush, global economic melt down. It looks bad, especially when you blame a guy, who is the President of the United States, for trying to clean up a couple of messes.
You either love this country or not. The Hannity Limbaugh unAmerican activity bothers me. Fox News and it’s entertainment based broadcasts bother me. I understand that they are there to get ratings and they have the right to free speech. That free speech ends when you yell fire. Attacking our President is unAmerican.
Health care is a financial decision. Health care along with the banking had a chance to do business in an honorable fashion. They chose not to, so the government has the duty to step in and protect us. If you feel you need protection from your government you live in a different country than I do.
Tort reform? Read a book, get educated, put the talk radio down and step away. It’s next to impossible to sue a doctor. You have to have an open and shut winnable case to even pay a retainer for an attorney. Insurance companies settle. That’s why the premiums go up. It’s a no lose situation for the insurance companies, they settle frivolous suits then raise premiums.
August 12, 2009 — 8:50 pm
Doug Quance says:
>David: It’s too early in the morning for me to fully tackle your points, but let me toss a few thoughts your way.
Sure the experimental drugs and treatment for AIDS has been expensive – but Magic Johnson is still alive today after 18 years with the disease. Are you trying to tell me that his success in fighting this disease was a result of some effort by some country with socialized medicine?
While Bush didn’t do enough to stifle the irresponsible lending by Fannie and Freddie, you show your ignorance on the subject by insinuating he did nothing. I can show you where he – and others including John McCain – were blocked by the Democrats in reigning in those two GSE’s. Irresponsible lending is what caused the collapse of the housing market.
Clinton just passed the Gramm – Leach – Bliley Act in 1999 which deregulated the financial services industries and eliminated some of the provisions of Glass – Steagall. Many claim that this was part of the collapse of the financial sector, though I believe that trading in derivatives that no one understood – along with nearly criminal behavior on the part of the financial ratings services like Moody’s – was as much to blame as anything.
I am so tired of hearing about Clinton surpluses I could scream. There never was a surplus. Period. I’ll bet you any amount of money on it… I’ll even give you odds, because it never happened. Go look up and you tell me which year this country did not sink deeper in debt. I’ll give you a clue – it ain’t been any time in recent history. Each and every year of Clinton’s administration, we have fallen deeper in debt… just like Reagan, Bush and Bush II. They simply borrowed money from Social Security to show a surplus – but that increased the debt. Are you really interested in the truth? Can you handle the truth? Go to: http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np and enter in any fiscal year of your choosing. Let me know when you find one where we didn’t go deeper into debt. I’ll be waiting with bated breath.
To quote Hillary Clinton –
While I seldom agree with Madame Clinton – on that note, I agree. This President is dragging us down to the point where this country could collapse. You think I shouldn’t attack what I find to be destroying my country? Sir, are you some sort of a fascist?
What happened to our financial markets did not involve one person or one entity. Like a tragic accident, it was the culmination of many smaller failures… and no one had the crystal ball to accurately predict what would happen. Right now, Congress and the President are sinking this country into debt so fast – it’s scaring those who are loaning us the money… and when the day comes that they quit buying our Treasurys – we’re screwed.
So you and I look at things from a different perspective. I view the Constitution as the law that protects me from my government… and apparently you believe the government should be our nanny to protect us from ourselves. If you don’t feel we need protection from our government – you are nothing more than the proverbial frog who is content to do nothing – and whose demise comes from a slowly boiled pot of water.
Your last paragraph is contradictory and laughable. How can insurance companies settle frivolous cases when, by your estimation, the plaintiff must have an open and shut case in order to retain an attorney?
Tort reform isn’t the “end all” of health care reform… but it is a component – and one that our President refuses to consider in the equation.
So again I pose the situation of a government takeover of the real estate business. In a mere seven months, they have taken over banks, insurance companies and car companies… with nary a peep. They broke contract law and cut the unions in to share first lien position in the Chrysler bankruptcy – shattering contract law. They are trying to take over health care using the trojan horse called the Public Option – which will… in the words of the Community Organizer in Chief… eventually lead to a single payer system in 10, 15 or 20 years.
And you don’t believe we need protection from a government that can not find the authority in the Constitution for any of the aforementioned unprecedented actions?
It’s 2:20 AM, and I have a date with my pillow. Hopefully this mini-rant will have some semblance of rationality to it.
August 12, 2009 — 11:20 pm
Greg Swann says:
> Sir, are you some sort of a fascist?
Name-calling. Well-poisoning.
> apparently you believe the government should be our nanny to protect us from ourselves
Characterization.
> you are nothing more than the proverbial frog who is content to do nothing
Characterization.
Overall the comment isn’t hostile, but these are ad hominems — attempts to win the debate by characterizing the man, rather than by defending an argument. I lean on this stuff for two reasons: It’s persuasively invalid and chaos spreads. I’m enjoying this debate, but we each of us get to be who we are.
August 13, 2009 — 6:12 am
Doug Quance says:
>Greg: Your critique shall be taken to heart.
It was very late – and I probably should have left it alone.
August 13, 2009 — 6:32 am
David Losh says:
Magic Johnson is the perfect example of what AIDS did to the insurance companies. He is alive, many years later, still getting treatments, and taking medication that was developed from a profit motivation. The cost to his insurance company is massive. His insurance company is paying while taking in a very small premium. Magic is in the prime of his life and may live to retirement or Medicare.
I’m sorry, it’s just a fact of life and death. Private Insurance companies can not keep up with the cost of health care. We could go into discussions about global health care issues like we are now seeing with swine flu. We may be able to have protectionism in trade, but disease knows no borders.
AIDS has been in Africa since World War II. It was never paid any attention because it was “over there.” In the 1980s it became an issue in Europe and the United States. Saying Europe had no hand in the discovery or research of the disease is kind of off topic. We are after all talking about the United States health care system.
Do you see the point? There is no choice. We will be policing the entire World’s Health Issues with a private insurance system. Who’ll pay? You will, we all will.
Reagan, at the time, was told, he was briefed on the disease. There were clear choices that he could have made as a states man. He along with many more politicians have avoided the sexual nature of the disease. The solution is condoms. How many politicians want to advocate the world wide use of condoms?
Here’s the thing about banking: the government is the source of currency. There are policies that are monitored daily. Banking is regulated. Banking has over sight. Did you see global economic melt down? I sure didn’t and I keep pretty close track.
What our President did is encourage home ownership. He made speeches about it. Even as things were getting more out of control he continued to say this was a time of unprecedented economic growth. While he spent billions of tax payer dollars, he turned a blind eye to our own economic mess.
It’s a mess. Bush dumped the first billions into it and left the current President to clean up a mess. It’s a mess far beyond the Gramm – Leach – Bliley Act of 1999.
The auto industry with the exuberance of cheap oil built and sold the Hummer, based on what, Desert Storm nostalgia, or Enduring Freedom? The auto industry was a dinosaur long before Obama became president. It passed life support when gas hit $4 a gallon. It was out of touch.
I happen to believe in the Constitution. Between the Bible and the Constitution, I figure everything is covered. In the Constitution there is a phrase:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
I’m taking that one phrase out: promote the general Welfare, because it goes along with:
1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
2: To borrow Money on the credit of the United States
I, sir, am a patriot. It is my honor and duty to provide common defence and general welfare.
Our President: Shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient;
and what assures me is: Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:–“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
We could go on, but bottom line is that our sustem of government works. The ban on assault rifles proved that any one could be voted out of office. Obama showed any one could get voted into office. Our system works.
I believe we will have the very best system of health care in the world, in the hands of the public trust. It has to be done. A world wide pandemic or epidemic will end up on our door step. Private Insurance Plans are already stretched to a breaking point. They can not raise premiums fast enough to cover costs. They are losing payers daily. As the pool of payers grows smaller and smaller premiums have to rise.
It’s financial.
As far as tort reform, you need a winnable, open, and shut case to go to court to sue a doctor. Settling is a whole different matter.
August 13, 2009 — 7:55 pm